Former Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Andrew Wheeler (2019- 2021) and his successor Michael Regan (2021-2024) shared an enlightening and inspiring conversation moderated by Vice President & Vice Provost for Climate & Sustainability Dr. Toddi Steelman in the Karsh Alumni and Visitor Center. Taking place on January 9th, this discussion was the first installment of the Sanford School of Public Policy’s “Bridging the Divide” series, meant to “feature bipartisan dialogues with distinguished public servants about the nation’s past, present, and future” for the United States’ 250th anniversary. The event was a collaboration between Sanford’s new Executive Masters of Public Affairs program and the POLIS: Center for Politics.

I could not design an event more suited for my interests and passions if I made it in a lab. As a student majoring in Public Policy, pursuing a Philosophy, Politics, and Economics certificate, and minoring in Environmental Sciences & Policy, the opportunity to witness two EPA leaders lean into civil discourse and share their experiences and perspectives on government, politics, and policy was a dream come true. The common thread throughout the nearly hour-long conversation was that while the two men had plenty of different beliefs, they had strong mutual respect for one another and could find common ground in their shared experiences and desire to get things done.

One story that Administrator Regan shared exemplified this. On his first day coming into the office, he said that Administrator Wheeler left him a note that included his personal cell, offering Regan the chance to call him if he ever needed counsel, support, or just someone to talk to. Both Administrators made it clear that while they may hammer the policies of each others’ presidents, they never attacked each other.

They both bemoaned how politics and press coverage distorts the public’s perception of what is actually occurring behind the scenes, creating controversies out of nothing at times. Toddi Steelman acknowledged the agreement on that front, saying “The commonality between both of your answers to that question is that you have to have a really clear, strong vision, and part of your leadership skill is cutting through the noise, that external noise, just to stay focused on what it is you need to accomplish because you have a very short time in office.”

Wheeler and Regan both shared pride in how far environmental protection has come in the United States and talked about the power and expansive reach of the EPA, especially compared to similar agencies in other nations. Adm. Regan remarked “that it was so easy for Andrew (Wheeler) and I to draw the ire of other cabinet members,” since they were frequently involved in issues such as transportation, energy, health, and agriculture that other departments are typically in charge of.

While this common ground was refreshing to see between members of two very different administrations, some of the most engaging parts of the conversation were when the two leaders diverged on governance and policy issues. Even through these differences, both of them held firm on their commitment to delivering results and running an effective EPA.

Adm. Wheeler shared his belief in having a smaller government and supports President Trump’s goal of shrinking the federal workforce. However, he did acknowledge that the broad, somewhat indiscriminate cuts that have been carried out in President Trump’s second term risk diminishing what he called the “institutional knowledge”, leaving “gaps that are harmful to the agency”. He explained that during his tenure, “We implemented lean management at EPA, and we trained over 80% of the EPA workforce, and it helped them be more efficient and effective. We actually handed over to Mr. Regan a workforce that was able to do their jobs much faster.”

Adm. Regan celebrated an influx of new young employees in his term, showing his belief in having a robust EPA staff. Even with this, he discussed how he frequently had to remind Republican lawmakers that his EPA had fewer staff than it did during the Reagan Administration. He expressed his appreciation to Adm. Wheeler for upskilling the workforce, but said, “I felt like that with this new, efficient machinery, we just didn't have enough muscle.” He also explained that the agency has a need to hire talented new employees with skills to help adapt to new technology and industries.

Before finishing off the conversation by responding to questions from the audience about AI data centers and the overturning of the Chevron decision (two prompts that also served to highlight their differences), the two shared and explained their leadership strengths and weaknesses. Adm. Regan discussed his “player-coach model”, pushing his team to excel while also not hesitating to take on tasks himself. He admitted to a drawback of this style, saying, “I think a lot of times that can be mistaken as micromanagement, or meddling or not keeping your eye on the ball. But in public service and these jobs, you have to have passion. Sometimes with that passion, there's a loss of clarity, and that's why you find yourself with good people to remind you of the position that you're supposed to be playing.” Adm. Wheeler talked about how he prioritized listening, having town halls at every single EPA regional office, not ending the event until everyone had asked their questions, ensuring every voice got heard.

While I may not agree with everything that either Administrator mentioned during the conversation or accomplished during their time leading the EPA, I emerged with a newfound admiration for both leaders. Seeing them treat each other with respect was inspiring to see in today’s polarized world, and listening to them honestly share the good work both did behind the scenes of political firestorms gave me hope for the future of public service. They both had excellent lessons in leadership and showed how people can disagree without being disagreeable. Truly a banner evening for civil discourse at Duke.